Sunday, June 1, 2014

Why Do Women Hate Nice Guys?

I recently finished reading Dr. Robert Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy. The book perfectly matched my recent exploration (and Facebook discussions) of the hidden nature of female desire, efficacy of monogamy, alpha versus beta males, and how all of these factors influence our romantic relationships. Specifically, the book detailed the "Nice Guy" phenomenon that has sparked a great deal of debate among my acquaintances. 

In most of my debate/discussions, I've framed this issue as either an alpha/beta male conflict or as a feminization of males. Neither frame is entirely accurate. First, the alpha/beta concept creates a false dichotomy of complex inter- and intrapersonal behaviors, and the concepts are difficult to operationally define. Everybody has their own impression of what constitutes alphas and betas. Second, the "feminization" assumes the males I've discussed are taking on stereotypical female characteristics... which also isn't accurate. Glover's book frames the topic perfectly. For the purposes of this post, I'll refer to "normal guys" and "nice guys." 

So who are these "nice guys?"

Glover defines them as dudes that need female validation and will do anything to get it. The will place their significant other on a pedestal and treat them like a princess (or prince; this concept is not exclusive to the breeders.) Nice guys are givers and derive joy from doing things for others. Nice guys are also fixers and will attempt to solve everyone's problems. They will ignore their own needs and put all their time and energy into making their partner happy. Their own emotional well-being is directly tied to their partner's emotional well-being. If the partner in unhappy, they're unhappy. They attempt to get their physical, emotional, and sexual needs met indirectly by hoping their partner will recognize their unmet needs and reciprocate. Nice guys are also passive and will avoid conflict (the the resulting disapproval.) As a result, nice guys will try to find the "right" way to do anything and everything. Nice guys generally prefer the company of females as they have trouble (or negatively judge... like "that guy is a jerk") other males. Nice guys routinely repress their own feelings, instead becoming chameleons and creating a facade of calmness. 

In relationships, nice guys initially seem like the perfect catch. They're polite, responsive, great listeners, and seem to be genuinely caring, open, honest men. As time passes, three things tend to go very, very wrong.

First, the nice guy will repress their needs to the point where their partner will never be able to fulfill all that is expected. Since the nice guy can't voice his needs, his only recourse is to put more effort into being "nicer." Eventually resentment begins to form, and the nice guy either snaps in fitful acts of rage or engages in secretive behaviors that, on some level, meet their needs. 

Second, nice guys smother their partner with affection, attention, gifts... whatever. The novelty of this wears off to the point where the gestures are no longer meaningful. It's not uncommon for nice guys to spend a tremendous amount of time planning and executing grand gestures. The more gestures the nice guy executes, the less response their partner has. The lack of enthusiasm and failure to reciprocate by the partner creates resentment within the nice guy, which creates a vicious cycle of trying harder then failing more.

Finally, nice guys constantly try to build intimacy to the exclusion of passion. As I talked about here, these concepts are mutually-exclusive. Intimacy kills passion. Unfortunately, the nice guy usually craves passion (one of the hopeful outcomes of the attention he showers on his partner), but acts in a way that guarantees passion will die. 

An example of this would be sex. Nice guys are usually pretty talented lovers because they spend a lot of time and energy learning how to please their partner. Let's say they devise a method to assure their partner has an orgasm every time they have sex. The nice guy will use that same script every time. Their routine becomes predictable, thus mechanical. While it feels good, their partner eventually tries to avoid sex because it's completely devoid of passion and no longer fulfilling.

Nice guys also tend to develop an unhealthy view of sex. Since they don't get their desired sexual needs fulfilled by their partner, nice guys tend to engage in addictive sexual behaviors. Glover hypothesized there's a correlation between "niceness" and the darkness of a guy's sexual interests. The more nice guy behaviors they exhibit, the more they hide. Porn addiction, compulsive masturbation, frequenting prostitutes, having affairs, engaging in paraphilias, or even rape are not uncommon. If a significant other discovers the nice guy's sexual secrets, they're almost always completely shocked. 

On the surface, the nice guy is perfect. Kind, considerate, attentive, loyal. They're like a dog... always there to love you. The problem, of course, is that persona is a facade hiding deep insecurity. Below the gilded surface, nice guys are dishonest, secretive, indecisive, manipulative, controlling, and passive-aggressive. They usually have deeply-embedded rage fueled by the resentment of unmet needs, usually have difficulty developing close friendships, and have trouble setting boundaries. In relationships they're doormats; they will allow their significant other to do anything including making all the decisions related to the relationship. The nice guy is incapable of standing up for themselves.

For the partner, this situation creates a terrible trap. Nice guys seem great on the surface, so it's common for women to easily fall in love and make a long-term commitment. When the sparks fade and the reality of being placed on a pedestal develops, it's hard to justify ending the relationship. Friends and family members will only see the grand romantic gestures, which seems like it would be amazing. It would be... if there were any other dynamic to the relationship. Also, the nice guy's unmet needs begin to create a great deal of unspoken tension, which the partner may or may not understand. 

Based on my discussions about the nature of female desire, women that are involved with nice guys would quickly get bored. Nice guys don't understand that distance is what creates passion, and the nice guy cannot handle emotional or physical distance. Pushing their partner away, even if it would result in the hot sex they crave, is an impossibility because they need their partner's validation.

In short, "nice guys" are anything but.

My Story

This topic is so fascinating because I'm a recovering nice guy. In the book, Glover discusses where and how this persona develops. For me, it was the typical story rooted in childhood family dynamics. I didn't recognize my view of the world and method of operation was abnormal until my mid-thirties. It has taken me five years to work through the issues related to being a nice guy. In the beginning of my "recovery", I was able to break out of nice guy patterns with random people, then acquaintances, then friends and family. My relationship with women, my real Achilles heel, has taken much longer. After five years, I'm finally at a point where I can accurately identify almost all of my maladaptive "nice guy" strategies when interacting with Shelly. 

Before discovering my nice guy persona, I missed out on a few potential relationships, sabotaged my first marriage, and have almost sabotaged my current marriage. Even though intellectually understood what I was doing and why I was doing it, the behaviors are so deeply ingrained in my psyche I couldn't let them go. It has taken A LOT of hard work to break the cycles and extinguish them for good. Glover's book outlines quite a few strategies to break out of the nice guy persona. I've actually used a few of his ideas, but have quite a few of my own. Here are a few things I've done with good success:

  • I had to learn to discriminate "jerks" from normal dudes. I saw a lot of completely normal assertive behaviors by other men as "dickish", which is part of the mindset that rationalizes the nice guy persona. It's a very arrogant "I'm better than them" attitude that reinforced my own dishonest manipulations.
  • I had to do the opposite of my instincts. Glover references the Seinfeld episode where George does the exact opposite of his instincts and begins succeeding at life. This actually works for the nice guy most of the time.
  • I had to understand that I don't need validation from others, especially women. It took a long time to realize the best gift I could give Shelly was the freedom of me not needing her constant validation. 
  • I had to take responsibility and begin demanding stuff I need. "I need ___________." was one of the most difficult statements I had to make. The anxiety of actually asking for what I needed was terrifying, but it got a lot easier as soon as I realized it was effective and preferred by others. As it turns out, that's how healthy people operate.
  • I had to become a relationship leader and make decisions. I'm a fairly natural leader outside relationships and am very comfortable accepting responsibility and assuming a leadership role. My challenge was bringing that mindset to my relationship. The key was to stop trying to guess what she wanted. I also had to stop worrying about what Shelly thought of the decision.
  • I had to destroy the pedestal. She's not perfect, but I dd everything in my power to convince myself she was. She has flaws as all of us do. I had to learn there is a huge difference between acknowledging and accepting those flaws and simply dismissing them.
  • I had to learn to create distance. Distance has always scared me because it eliminates those validations I desperately needed. It also sparked a fear of abandonment. I overcame this with the realization that closeness and intimacy kills passion. I started experimenting with intentionally creating distance using the games in the linked post. They work. Really, really well. That feedback was all I needed to get comfortable creating distance.
  • I had to learn to self-affirm. I had to learn to be okay with myself flaws and all, which involves affirming my own self-worth. It is a burden I couldn't place on anyone else, especially Shelly. Specifically, this involves not talking about every single accomplishment or event in my life, mostly via social media.
  • I had to learn sex wasn't a validation of love. This was a tough thing for me to grasp because I had internalized the "if she loves me, she'll have sex with me" belief. Yes, sex can bring us closer, but thinking of it as a recreational activity and accepting the selfishness of doing it to satisfy my physical needs has dramatically changed my behaviors for the better. I'll probably elaborate on this point in a future post.
  • I had to learn to be okay with my sense of competitiveness and aggression. I always made an association with typical "alpha" male behaviors and misogynist jackasses that used and exploited women. Again, this fueled my own inflated sense of righteousness, which I used to rationalize my behaviors. Fully embracing my masculine characteristics and understanding they're complimentary (as opposed to antagonistic or repressive) to Shelly's feminist characteristics has been another incredibly freeing realization.
  • I had to learn to be caring and nurturing without expecting reciprocity. This lesson is rather insidious because it's so deeply ingrained from family patters stretching back to my youth. Previously, all helping behavior was done for a reason- to somehow meet my own needs. Once I became comfortable asking to have my needs met, it became easy to give freely with no expectation of reciprocity.
  • I had to learn others give without expectation of reciprocity. This is related to the last. Since everything I did was for a hidden reason, I assumed everyone else did the same. They don't. Recognizing that has made me a lot less guarded with others, which has resulted in deeper, more meaningful relationships.
  • I had to learn how to set and maintain healthy boundaries by saying "no", then communicate said boundaries. Before, I had boundaries but lacked the assertiveness to prevent people from crossing them. Solving this riddle was as simple as identifying them and uncompromisingly protecting them. When everything else started falling into place, this became easy. It also helped that I learned people like knowing boundaries. Ambiguity is not a desirable characteristic.
  • I had to learn to be okay with people being angry or disappointed with me. Before this transformation, I could be talked into pretty much anything because I didn't want to disappoint people. Now? I don't give a fuck. Since my self-worth isn't tied to others' perceptions of me, I have the freedom to make people angry or to disappoint them. 

How has it been going? So far, so good. Breaking free of the nice guy mindset has been incredibly liberating. I feel a freedom I never knew possible. Every waking moment isn't always muffins wrapped in rainbows, but my day-to-day existence is far more fulfilling. My relationship with Shelly has changed dramatically for the better, which is another post for another day. 

There's a high probability a lot of men reading this are "nice guys." If you're one of these dudes, I would highly recommend you begin taking steps to break free. It will change your life for the better. There's also a high probability a lot of the women reading this are involved in a relationship with a "nice guy." If that's the case, you're probably already at the stage where you've gotten a glimpse behind the curtain. Or maybe you're at the stage where the constant attention and agreeableness has become insufferable. Again, I would encourage them to take the steps to change. 

If you know of anyone that fits this profile, share the post. Too many people suffer through the trials and tribulations of the nice guy syndrome. Knowledge is power. And knowing is half the battle.

Go Joe!


Postscript: Since writing this post, I've started the San Diego Man Camp project. Check out the blog here and the Facebook group here (sorry ladies, it's a men-only group.) 


  1. I can relate to this point in particular:

    "I had to learn to be okay with people being angry or disappointed with me. Before this transformation, I could be talked into pretty much anything because I didn't want to disappoint people. Now? I don't give a fuck. Since my self-worth isn't tied to others' perceptions of me, I have the freedom to make people angry or to disappoint them."

    I have always been a people pleaser and take to heart feedback people give me about how I am perceived. It's difficult for me to say no even though I need to take care of myself first.

    However, I feel non-conformists are not well liked or appreciated in society..

  2. way to generalize and demonize an entire demographic of people. i've heard this so much too how the nice guys are actually the bad guys, way to follow your given script to a T, slave.

    1. Cheer up little buckaroo; I'm sure you'll get laid soon.

    2. That's true Emily, non conformists aren't always appreciated, and sometimes disliked. But to a person that's secure, self confident, comfortable in their own skin, and not hostage to other people's opinions because they don't need the approval of others..........that simply doesn't matter

    3. Anonymous, the "Nice Guys" ARE the bad with it

    4. I am surprised there are any "nice guys " left. I think Nice Guy is just a catch all phrase to describe any man who a woman finds unattractive. She should just say that he does not meet her attractiveness criteria and be honest about it. I didn't fit the "Nice Guy" criteria but was a regular, quiet type of guy who could not get a date. I was not a bad person, women just were not attracted to me. So I turned to strippers and escorts and have always enjoyed myself. No rejections, No "let's just be friends", no wasting time pursuing women who were not interested. It really has worked out well. Women did not enjoy rejecting me and I hated being rejected. A nice thing about an escort is that you can share your secrets and insecurities; you can actually be nice to her without getting dumped. as marraige has crumbled and girlfriends come and go, escorts are the best alternative for guys whom women find unattractive.

    5. Very true, original Anonymous. Dr. Glover is a fucking hypocrite and he's also probably a con artist, as no real psychiatrist besides him recognizes the "Nice Guy Syndrome".

      Michael Wilson you are a HORRIBLE person. Deal wit it, bitch! :)

  3. The question shouldn't be "Why do Women hate "Nice Guys"", but "Why do "Nice Guys" hate Women?

  4. Joson Robillard...........London to a brick he won't:P

  5. Definitely on target for me---I like to think I am recovering after 40 years as a Nice Guy (the previous 10 years learning about external liberty and the mindset that goes with it). "caring and nurturing without expecting reciprocity" and "others give without expectation of reciprocity" really an aha moment, although I had seen them separately, had not realized their interaction.
    The starting point, took a long time to move on from there though, was that I was rated a perfectionist when at school, and realized that was not a good thing.
    I wonder how perfectionism is related to this topic. Probably some aspects are positive, who knows.

  6. Guys who cannot get a date for whatever reason should re-order their priorities. Move dating from #1 to #10 or lower. At #1 put furthering your education and/or your career where you will see a tangible result. If you are asked why you are not dating say that you are busy but will get to it later. This is the perfect response because you are not blaming the opposite gender for your lack of dates.

  7. Excellent article on exiting the dating game